As far as I can remember, I did not know of Clay Jones until someone shared a recent blog post of his in the Rethinking Hell Facebook Group. The Rethinking Hell Facebook Group is administered by a group of people (including myself) who believe the Bible teaches conditional immortality (which is also called annihilationism). Jones’ article is critical of conditional immortality. I read it and felt moved to respond. But before writing this response, I took a little time to learn a little about Clay Jones by reading some about him and by reading a couple of articles he has written on other topics.
My impression of Clay Jones from my quick research is that he is a man I can thank God for. He appears to be truly passionate about things like the truth of the Bible, seeking to live a holy life that is pleasing to God, and living with integrity. He seeks to equip others to understand and defend God’s truth and also to live lives consistent with the glorious gospel that we believe. So, while I disagree with Jones’ recent article on annihilationism, overall, I view him as a brother in Christ, and I thank God for his example and ministry.
You may read the article I am responding to here: And the Atheist Shall Lie Down with the Annihilationist.
Two things in the article that I agree with
Before discussing the points in the article where I think Jones and the unbelievers whom he quotes fail to understand annihilationism, I want to point out two things Jones says that I agree with.
1. Jones wrote, “A growing number of Christians are abandoning the traditional Christian doctrine that the lost will suffer eternal torment in favor of the belief that after the Judgment, the lost will be annihilated.” Praise God! I think that is probably true. It is a difficult thing to measure, but my feeling, and the feeling of others on all sides of this debate, is that more and more Christians who used to believe that the Bible teaches eternal torment, now believe that the Bible teaches conditional immortality. Of course, Jones views this as a negative development, whereas I view it as an indication that God is working to correct a long held and widely believed error among His people. (You may view a 10 minute video where I explain briefly the Biblical reasons that I believe in Annihilationism here.)
2. Jones also wrote, “Although I hold that Scripture teaches the eternal torment of the lost, I realize that what I’m writing here isn’t a defeater of annihilationism. That can only be done by the proper exegesis of various passages pertaining to the final state of the wicked.” In other words, Jones is writing about what he views as one of the (negative) effects of believing in annihilationism, he is not writing directly about the biblical evidence for or against such a belief. I agree fully with Jones that the only way to know if something like annihilationism or eternal torment is true is through proper exegesis of the Bible. I am blessed to be part of a community of theologically conservative evangelicals who have been working hard to do and to share good, biblical evidence, based on sound exegesis, that shows that conditional immortality is taught in the Bible.
Consider the points above where Jones and I agree. More and more Christians are shifting from belief in eternal torment to belief in conditional immortality and the only way to know if we are correct to make that shift is to study the Bible. If you are a Bible teacher, preacher, or any Christian who loves to study the Bible, this should motivate you to look into this issue. Your most important resource is your Bible. Your second most important resource is standard Bible study tools (like lexicons and tools that allow you to look up words and cross references, etc.). Finally, because God uses other Christians to help us, it is helpful to look at material from Christians on both sides of this issue. You’ve likely heard from Christians who believe in eternal torment most of your life. In terms of materials explaining the evidence for conditional immortality, here are two places to find lots of resources:
1. The Rethinking Hell website. (If you don’t know where to begin, try this page on the website)
2. Mark’s Resources on Hell (includes links to articles and a few videos I have on this topic)
The Gist of Clay Jones’ Article
Jones gives examples of atheists and other non-Christians (Buddhists, the Sadducees, and others) who expect death to be the end of their conscious existence. They expect a type of annihilation where they will die and then have no conscious existence. They either claim to not be bothered by this (he quotes quite a few atheists who say they are not bothered by death) or even to look forward to annihilation (apparently some Buddhists see annihilation as the goal, although their view is more complicated). Based on this, Jones suggests that Christians who believe in annihilation are just offering these unbelievers “exactly what they most desire,” so why should they care about the gospel?
Two Big things Clay and the Atheists Miss
Jones and the unbelievers whom he quotes both seem to miss two major, really important points. Interestingly, both points that they miss can be seen in John 5:28-29.
ESV John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
The first thing they miss is that evangelical conditionalists believe that the unsaved will be resurrected to face judgment (in the first sentence of his article, Jones indicates he knows this, but then seems to ignore it throughout the rest of his article). This means that death on earth in this current age is not the end of the story for the unsaved. They will one day stand in resurrected bodies and face God’s judgment. The experience of judgment will result in them weeping and gnashing their teeth, as Jesus tells us. Just as different methods of execution now involve varying levels of suffering during the process of dying, at the final judgment the unsaved may suffer various degrees and types of suffering in the process of perishing. For example, being executed by lethal injection would not be as bad as being executed by crucifixion. Evangelical conditionalism allows for any finite amount of suffering that God chooses to allow or inflict prior to or as part of the process of perishing. This allows for degrees of punishment. This fact alone reveals the attitude of the atheists who claim not to fear death and what follows is foolish if annihilationism is true (just as it is foolish if eternal torment were true).
Now, it should be pointed out that near the beginning of his article, Clay Jones explains that he knows that some annihilationists believe there may be suffering before final perishing, but he says he is focusing on “straight annihilation” (his term). What he means is that he is discussing annihilation without any conscious suffering at all. He is allowed to do that, but when he chooses to do that he is no longer interacting with a large portion of the Christians he mentioned who have moved from belief in eternal torment to belief in conditional immortality. His article becomes largely irrelevant to the very situation he mentions in the first sentence of his article. I have been working with and interacting with many Christian evangelicals who are the type of people Jones mentioned in his first sentence. Namely, we are Christian who changed views from eternal torment to conditional immortality. All of us believe that the unsaved will be resurrected to face judgment. I’ve never heard anyone say that they think the process of standing before a holy God in judgment will be pleasant for those whose sins are not forgiven (that’s an understatement). And many of us conditionalists believe that there will in fact be conscious suffering before the process of annihilation is complete. We are humble about the nature and duration of this suffering and rarely attempt to give details for the simple reason that the Bible does not give details about the conscious suffering. This first major error is enough to undermine the entire article. Yet this first mistake is not nearly as large or consequential an error as the second error.
The second mistake that is made by the atheists quoted in the article, and which Jones does not seem to recognize, is that they fail to believe that some people will experience “the resurrection of life.” No evangelical conditionalist believes that all people will eternally perish. We believe that by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, some people have been forgiven and receive the gift of eternal life. We will live forever with God and with other Christians in a world without pain, suffering, or death. We will experience eternal joy. This gift of immortality is not for everyone. It is conditional. That’s why we call it conditional immortality. The condition is having true faith in Christ.
Of course, if everyone was going to utterly and permanently perish, the best we could do would be to try to muster up the attitudes reflected in the quotes from the atheists in Jones’ article. But everything changes when we realize that there is a real alternative to annihilation. That alternative is good, glorious, and wonderful beyond our imagination. In this light, conditionalism offers a very strong motivation for believing in Jesus. The promise of eternal life in Christ by God’s grace has motivated me to try (with God’s help) to live a life consistent with faith in Christ even when it has involved taking risks, facing dangers, making sacrifices, and suffering. I don’t need the threat of eternal torment to be motivated. Eternal life with Jesus is a magnificent and powerful motivation! I’m not surprised that the atheists don’t see this because they don’t believe it is true and are blind to much of God’s truth. But I’m disappointed that Jones seems to miss this point altogether.
The claim of some atheists to not fear death should not go unquestioned
Jones quotes a number of atheists who claim they do not fear death. Perhaps at the time of the quote they did not fear death in terms of any immediate awareness of the emotion of fear. Perhaps it is even true of some atheists to the end, although I wouldn’t bet on it. First, our widespread experience confirms that people who are not confident of God’s promise of eternal life are usually terrified of dying. They will go to great lengths to avoid death. This is normal. But we don’t have to depend on our experience to confirm that people fear death unless they have been delivered from that fear by Jesus. The Word of God teaches us that outside of Christ people are captive to fear of death:
ESV Hebrews 2:14-15 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
Outside of Christ, people do fear death. Common sense, our experience throughout life, and most importantly, the Bible, confirm that people fear death. The atheists who claim not to fear death may not be intentionally lying, but neither do I think they are being honest with themselves (or with us!).
What about People Motivated to Accept Christ by the Threat of Eternal Torment?
Jones shares his own testimony and that of another about the role that desiring to avoid eternal torment played in their salvation. I don’t doubt that many people have been partly motivated to accept Jesus because they want to avoid hell. In fact, I would say that avoiding hell is a good motivation. It’s just that what we avoid by not going to hell is the destruction of our body and soul (see Matthew 10:28), not eternal torment. Thankfully, a gospel presentation does not have to include perfect theology in all its details in order to be used by God. If God required perfect doctrinal precision, what hope would we have? It is essential to get the basics right. These includes things like Jesus being our Lord and Savior, the fact the He died for us, and the fact that He rose again. So, the fact that many have come to Christ believing that by doing so they avoided eternal torment, does not make eternal torment a correct doctrine nor does it in any way invalidate the salvation of those who believed under such teaching.
We don’t know for sure what effect it will have if more evangelists begin to frame the gospel in terms of gaining eternal life rather than framing it in terms of avoiding eternal torment. However, we do know this. There is not a single mention of eternal torment in the evangelistic preaching recorded in the book of Acts. It’s not that the preaching in Acts is completely void of warning. Consider this warning from Paul:
ESV Acts 13:40-41 Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about: "'Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish [aphanizō]; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.'"
Paul warned that those who scoff at the gospel message instead of accepting it will perish. In this verse, the word “perish” translates the Greek word aphanizō. We know that aphanizō is an appropriate word in Greek to refer to what we mean by “annihilation” because one of the early church fathers, Athenagoras of Athens, used aphanizō specifically and clearly to refer to the possibility of annihilation. Athenagoras himself did not believe in annihilation but wrote about it. Josephus also used aphanizō to refer to a type of annihilationism. (You can find the details with quotes in this blog post: Athenagoras of Athens, a Hostile Witness for Annihilationism.)
Based on the example of apostolic evangelism in Acts, I’m confident that framing the gospel in terms of conditional immortality rather than in terms of avoiding eternal torment will not harm the spread of the gospel. In fact, I believe it will help the spread of the gospel.
Ignoring the negative impact of the doctrine of eternal torment
Jones is concerned about the possible negative impact of the doctrine of annihilationism on reaching atheists. However, he does not consider the fact that the apparent gross injustice and cruelty of tormenting people forever for sins committed in one short lifetime on earth is a reason that some atheists have cited for rejecting Christianity. For example, in his book Why I am not a Christian, Bertand Russell wrote:
There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment.
By everlasting punishment, it is almost certain that Russell means eternal torment, even though annihilation is also an everlasting punishment. Others who see a problem with eternal torment have not chosen atheism, but they have rejected evangelical Christianity (I discuss this problem and give examples in this blog post.)
Responses to a few very brief arguments defending eternal torment or pointing to verses that Jones thinks teach eternal torment
Although at the beginning of his article Jones said his purpose was not to give the type of evidence that would show eternal torment is true and annihilationism is false, he does briefly mention one argument and a few Bible passages often used to support belief in eternal torment. I will reply very briefly to these.
Jones argues that the occupants of hell will be eternally unrepentant. This is sometimes used to argue that God is just in tormenting them forever. This actually points to some major problems with the eternal torment view. In this view, sin continues forever. God never destroys all sin and never stops all sinning. This is inconsistent with a view of a final, perfect world where all God’s enemies have been destroyed. Further, this would mean that God’s wrath continues forever instead of being completely carried out on what the Bible calls “the day of wrath” (see: The Day of Wrath).
Jones seems to think that the mention of “eternal fire” in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 implies eternal torment. However, the fire is eternal because the fire’s source is God Himself, who is a consuming fire towards all evil. This does not mean that those consumed and burned up and turned to ashes by the fire last forever (see this blog post: Why Eternal Fire does not Mean Eternal Torment).
Finally, Jones mentions the worms and fires in Mark 9:48 as support for eternal torment. Perhaps he does not realize that Jesus was quoting from the last verse in Isaiah where the same worms and fire are being used to consume dead bodies, not torment living people.
Conclusion
I thank God for the years of ministry and teaching through which Clay Jones has served and built up the body of Christ. I pray sincerely that God will continue to use him for much good. On the particular issue of the nature of hell, I feel that Jones has failed to understand the implications and logic of conditional immortality and has apparently so far failed to see the strong biblical case for this doctrine. I think he is right that many Christians are moving from belief in eternal torment to belief in conditional immortality. I pray that he will soon join us!
Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others . . .
A related blog post:
Does Annihilationism Make the Threat of Hell Meaningless?
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