tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post887678431291828306..comments2023-12-16T07:12:26.233-08:00Comments on parresiazomai: What is Conditional Immortality?Mark Corbetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-48797131805932406792021-08-13T05:38:31.542-07:002021-08-13T05:38:31.542-07:00Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This blog post w...Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This blog post was limited in scope and focus, and in that sense is one-sided. However, in other blog posts and videos I have addressed the verses you mention. I'll provide links:<br /><br />I address Matthew 25:41 here: https://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2019/05/eternal-fire-sun-and-solar-flares-why.html<br /><br />I address Matthew 3:12 in this 10 minute YouTube video: https://youtu.be/zZEUqhnGCeQ<br /><br />I address Daniel 12:2 here:<br />https://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2019/01/fair-warning-problem-for-view-of.html<br /><br />I address Mark 9:48 in this 10 minute video:<br />https://youtu.be/yZpjs74uQ0s<br /><br />I address the Luke 16 passage here (see problem #15):<br />https://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2019/06/25-problems-in-25-minutes-response-to.html<br /><br />I address 2 Thessalonians 1:9 here:<br />https://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2019/04/words-of-annihilation-plato-and.html<br /><br />The two passages in Revelation I address in detail in a 7 part blog post series that begins here:<br />https://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2017/02/what-is-second-death-part-1-symbols-and.html<br /><br />I hope and pray that these resources will be helpful. Feel free to follow up.Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-35093500354880499122021-08-12T14:48:39.467-07:002021-08-12T14:48:39.467-07:00This seems a bit one-sided and incomplete presenta...This seems a bit one-sided and incomplete presentation in that the scriptures given are only those which highlight the scriptural truth about what is offered to God's children, namely, "eternal life". It would seem a more complete evaluation should include the scripture where the eternal fires of hell are presented as well. (Matt 25:41, 46, Matt 3:12, Dan 12:2, Mark 9:47-49, Luke 16:23-24, 2 Thess 1:9, Rev 14:10-11, and Rev 20:10). A word of caution - struggling against the doctrine of hell has led some to go down paths which resulted in severe mischief (i.e., open theism, "Love Wins", etc.). Highly recommend Dr. Greg Bahnsen's treatment of the issue in his lecture "The Problem of Evil" (we may be found to be placing ourselves in judgement over God in attempting to resolve a dilemma manufactured by human evaluations).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11779289159139414432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-10293441931116133632021-05-15T03:33:25.977-07:002021-05-15T03:33:25.977-07:00I pray that God will guide your studies as you see...I pray that God will guide your studies as you seek His truth on this issue and others! Feel free to contact me (here, or find me on Facebook if you're on it) with any questions.Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-91873289016657192892021-05-14T15:28:40.149-07:002021-05-14T15:28:40.149-07:00I only heard about this viewpoint for the first ti...I only heard about this viewpoint for the first time a few weeks ago... sounds very interesting, whether I wind up in agreement or not! This at least gave me a taste of the explanation. But I agree with your most recent post -- it's hardly an essential issue that we all have to agree on to be brothers and sisters in Christ.tempanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11150991586408064122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-4222477327597062212020-07-12T10:42:56.192-07:002020-07-12T10:42:56.192-07:00Good post!
To those who doubt, Mark brought up sev...Good post!<br />To those who doubt, Mark brought up several pertinent Scriptures and explained them very well, but please keep in mind that these passages are a small fraction of what God has to say on the subject. <br />There are over 100 passages explaining conditional immortality at https://wrostoll.blogspot.com/2014/12/a-list-of-scriptures-supporting.html?showComment=1525545993101#c794994552672731965 <br />(If this format does not support links, just go to wrostoll.blogspot.com)<br />Plus the Rethinking Hell website has many articles that explore the topic in depth. jgapinoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09310004525587919830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-136599214459177952016-06-22T15:01:19.963-07:002016-06-22T15:01:19.963-07:00Zach, my brother in Christ and my friend,
Thanks ...Zach, my brother in Christ and my friend,<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to interact with my blog post and with Peter.<br /><br />You bring up several objections to my understanding of conditional immortality. I’ll just address one of those objections here. You complain that according to conditionalism:<br /><br />“your conclusion assumes the destruction of the image of God” and “the very image of God is destroyed”<br /><br />By these statements, I think you are referring to the fact that all people are created in God’s image. Therefore, you seem to feel that it is not possible that people could be destroyed, as this would involve the destruction of God’s image.<br /><br />I certainly agree that people are made in God’s image. This is taught in several places including Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 9:6. However, I do not agree that people made in God’s image will not be destroyed by God. Here are several reasons:<br /><br />1. The Bible never says that God will not destroy people because they are made in His image. In fact, the Bible says that God will destroy unsaved people (Matthew 10:28). Your argument seems to be based more on a feeling that people made in God’s image could never be destroyed than on any scripture.<br /><br />2. The image of God as seen in people will exist forever in a vast multitude of redeemed people. Unlike now, we will reflect God’s image without distortion.<br /><br />3. The image of God in unrighteous people is severely distorted by sin. For those who are saved this distortion is corrected, partly in this life, and completely when we are glorified. But for the unrighteous the distortion remains as long as they do. Now imagine that twenty photographs (images) were taken of a person, but 15 of them were severely distorted so that they made the person look bad. Would it be wrong to destroy the distorted images? The Bible says that the unrighteous will be destroyed, and I can’t see why that is unreasonable.<br /><br />4. What is your alternative? You believe that the image of God (what remains of it in the unrighteous) will be tormented forever? How is that better? I don’t see how distorted images of God being tormented forever is an improvement over them simply being burned to ashes (and being burned to ashes is precisely what the Bible says will happen, see 2 Peter 2:6).<br /><br />Grace and Peace (even when we disagree, perhaps especially then),<br />Mark (with Hope and Joy!)<br />Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-30226796166898609762016-06-22T10:45:45.228-07:002016-06-22T10:45:45.228-07:00It should be absolutely beyond dispute that the Sc...It should be absolutely beyond dispute that the Scriptures tells us that we were dead in our trespasses in sins, and that we are made alive in Christ. <br /><br />Thus, we know for a indisputable fact that the Word of God refers to a state of existence for a human being as being spiritually dead. <br /><br />What this article, and your suggestion do, is they equivocate on that notion of spiritual death and insert a new definition that isn't Scriptural whereby the very image of God is destroyed. <br /><br />By the logic you are applying to these passages, we should look at all passages that talk about Jesus being the SON of God and read them with the assumption that all other examples of sonship we know of are those in which the father and son are different beings, and thereby reject Trinitarianism. Heretical groups that also hold to annihilationism do this very thing, because they are consistent. <br /><br />The list of illogical and unBiblical assumptions required to even make these ideas tenable are extensive: http://thelosopher.blogspot.com/2016/04/annihilationism-cannot-be-true.html<br /><br />It cannot be honestly argued that spiritual death as part of a manner of existence does not exist in the Bible. Therefore, the burden of proof is on this minority view held by almost no relevant theologians in centuries of church history to prove that this second type of spiritual death is CLEARLY laid out in the text, and it simply is not, therefore, the case fails, and all attempts to suggest that the very image of God could be destroyed fail. Zach Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763973810596210603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-65636468588018456172016-06-22T08:32:11.338-07:002016-06-22T08:32:11.338-07:00By way of example, John 6:49-51 suggest standard u...By way of example, John 6:49-51 suggest standard usage of die and live in this context, given its implicit logic:<br /><br />// Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they DIED. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and NOT DIE. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will LIVE FOREVER. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. //Peter Gricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04126539954064642809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-44985793864972564042016-06-22T08:24:25.735-07:002016-06-22T08:24:25.735-07:00I should say, you have implied that we should read...I should say, you have implied that we should read both "life" and "death" in the Bible always as "spiritual" constructs. This isn't a given. As I showed, it is very easy to maintain both usages (you said it was impossible).Peter Gricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04126539954064642809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-71596645524706461882016-06-22T08:14:50.267-07:002016-06-22T08:14:50.267-07:00You haven't shown that a fallacy of equivocati...You haven't shown that a fallacy of equivocation has been committed. Instead you seem to have asserted that all instances of "death" should be read as "spiritual death." As I mentioned, this is an alternative explanation, but as such it needs to do more if it is to serve to refute.<br /><br />Here is an article on Apologetics Press discussing whether the death forewarned in Genesis 2:17 was "spiritual":<br /><br />http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=67Peter Gricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04126539954064642809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-54941712762221131562016-06-22T07:20:00.323-07:002016-06-22T07:20:00.323-07:00Very well-said, Mark. Clear, concise, and illumina...Very well-said, Mark. Clear, concise, and illuminating. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-17030212261397538662016-06-22T07:12:46.930-07:002016-06-22T07:12:46.930-07:00When your conclusion assumes the destruction of th...When your conclusion assumes the destruction of the image of God, rejects thousands of years of Christian theology, and insists that we make a distinction that the text does not point out via a logical fallacy, it is impossible for that perspective to pass exegetical muster. <br /><br />If the argument in play is not logical, it can't be Scriptural, and the argument at play here commits a fallacy of equivocation, so it's not possibly Biblically accurate. Zach Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763973810596210603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-1983011711600073362016-06-22T06:39:43.524-07:002016-06-22T06:39:43.524-07:00Zach, is it really "impossible to understand&...Zach, is it really "impossible to understand" how one can be dead, alive, raised up and seated with Christ (Eph 2:1,5,6) in one sense (namely, spiritually), yet also in another sense actually alive, dead and resurrected?<br /><br />Remember also that an alternative explanation isn't a refutation. The right explanation will not be a function of disputation in the abstract, but of exegetical work and biblical theology.Peter Gricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04126539954064642809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-57492516080086194272016-06-22T06:25:39.061-07:002016-06-22T06:25:39.061-07:00This tries to solve a dilemma that doesn't act...This tries to solve a dilemma that doesn't actually exist. It misunderstands what it means to be spiritually dead.<br /><br />Before I became a Christian, I was spiritually dead, I didn't have spiritual life, the wrath of God abided on me. But I still existed. Forcing the notion of spiritual death to be tied with the notion of existence makes out state of spiritual death before salvation impossible to understand Biblically, and creates an equivocation fallacy.Zach Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763973810596210603noreply@blogger.com