tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post2661425386481336656..comments2023-12-16T07:12:26.233-08:00Comments on parresiazomai: The Universalist Story is Not a Realistic Story (Annihilationism vs. Universalism)Mark Corbetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-26254670993169359162017-11-01T13:03:17.710-07:002017-11-01T13:03:17.710-07:00Brett wrote, //Eternal life is not “living forever...Brett wrote, //Eternal life is not “living forever”//<br /><br />“Eternal life” certainly does mean to live forever. That’s the basic, plain meaning of the words. Other meaning comes by association with the fact that we know that eternal life occurs in God’s presence in the New Heavens and New Earth. So we rightly think of “eternal life” as “sinless, painless, joy filled, glorious life with God and Jesus”, but that goes beyond the basic meaning of the words and is based on other truths and other words beyond "eternal life".<br />Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-40388213555622330912017-11-01T12:59:50.548-07:002017-11-01T12:59:50.548-07:00Brett wrote:
//Also, being "perished" is...Brett wrote:<br />//Also, being "perished" is the same Greek word used for LOST and DESTROYED in the Greek....these are all conditions are ones of being alienated from Christ in the mind/heart (Col 1:21 / Eph 4:8) (dying in sin means to die NOT KNOWING GOD)...it's missing out on "everlasting life" which is strictly, "not knowing" God- Jhn 17:3).//<br /><br />Like most words, the Greek word for “perished” (apollumi) has a range of meaning. The meaning can indeed include something being “lost”, like a coin, or “ruined”, like a wineskin. But when applied to PEOPLE by FAR the most common meaning of “apollumi” is indeed “to perish” (passively) or to kill (actively). Apollumi is also one of the Greek words used specifically to refer to the complete destruction of both soul and body, which is precisely what I mean by annihilation. I have explained all this in another post here:<br /><br />http://parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2017/03/what-is-second-death-part-6-harmony.html<br />Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-44680193378767594312017-11-01T12:58:09.871-07:002017-11-01T12:58:09.871-07:00Brett wrote:
//Mark, if the bible were inspired an...Brett wrote:<br />//Mark, if the bible were inspired and penned in 21st century English, you might have a valid point here, but this is not a challenge for anyone who goes to the Hebrew and Greek to better understood the INSPIRED and thus INTENDED meaning. //<br /><br />We are blessed with excellent English translations of the Bible. An English speaking Christian can study any of the major translations (NIV, ESV, CSB, etc.) and learn God’s truth and be encouraged by His promises and inspired by Bible stories. They can be confident in these translations, although this does not mean such translations are perfect. It is dangerous to imply that Christians that do not have the ability to study the Bible in Greek and are seriously hindered in knowing God’s truth (you don’t quite say this, but you’re comment might be read this way). Nevertheless, you are of course correct that the Bible was originally inspired and written in Hebrew and Greek. <br /><br />There is indeed an added benefit in being able to study the Bible’s meaning in the original languages. I’m thankful that I’ve had opportunity to take some courses in Greek and Hebrew and have years of experience using the Greek (and sometimes Hebrew) to add depth and clarity to my Bible study. I’ve also studied how to define words from other languages (I had a whole course in this) and had years of experience in thinking about these issues as I worked in a bilingual setting for 14 years and am blessed to be fluent in two modern languages.<br /><br />As I’ve studied the topic of the final fate of the unrighteous in depth, looking at data from the original languages has confirmed and strengthened my conviction that annihilationism is the correct view. As I studied, I found that “perish” is indeed a good translation, and so is “death”, and so is “burning them to ashes”, and so on with many words and phrases which teach annihilationism. Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-89230595433831185672017-11-01T07:12:11.207-07:002017-11-01T07:12:11.207-07:00...Mark, you said, "A major challenge for you......Mark, you said, "A major challenge for your view is that it requires defining words the Bible uses to mean things other than the normal, simple meaning of those words. "<br /><br />What simple meaning? Simple ENGLISH meanings? <br /><br />Mark, if the bible were inspired and penned in 21st century English, you might have a valid point here, but this is not a challenge for anyone who goes to the Hebrew and Greek to better understood the INSPIRED and thus INTENDED meaning. How do we know what was intended? First, we should study how Scripture entirely as it gives witness to itself in the use of a word of phrase and this often contradicts what modern theology tells us, second, we can see how the contemporary usage of a word was used at the time these documents were written to best determine the actual meaning. <br /><br />As Stan points out, your conflict with a patriarchal Universalist understanding is an interpretive difference, it is NOT a matter of "believing what is written". <br /><br />Also, being "perished" is the same Greek word used for LOST and DESTROYED in the Greek....these are all conditions are ones of being alienated from Christ in the mind/heart (Col 1:21 / Eph 4:8) (dying in sin means to die NOT KNOWING GOD)...it's missing out on "everlasting life" which is strictly, "not knowing" God- Jhn 17:3).<br /><br />This is important and it matters, but it's not eternal doom....Eternal life is not "living forever", meaning not having it does not mean the opposite...mortal death is hardly an eternal impediment to God, who has the keys to hell (Hades) and death, who destroyed the work of the devil on the cross and won't honor it existing as a permanent stain on His creation...I submit to you, brother, that Jesus won't use them lock the gates from the inside, but bust them wide them....if we look at the witness of Jesus, especially Jesus on the cross who DIED for the ungodly, there can be no other outcome that would give God more glory.<br /><br />I hope you will consider this Mark; God bless you.- Brett S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12588545364344104804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-88121582833353527032017-07-27T16:43:04.299-07:002017-07-27T16:43:04.299-07:00This isn't really a major challenge because th...This isn't really a major challenge because the eschatological senses of terms were not treated as straightforward under Pharisaic Judaism. Annihilation only appears obvious if it is taken for granted that these terms 'ought' to be taken in a straightforward way, and this is a heuristic assumption, nothing more. The impasses between purgatorialism and annihilationism boil down to heuristics and methodology that each camp brings to the table, and there's no "objective referee" saying one set of heuristics/methodology is 'better' than the other.Stan Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16865980026908644731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-58028281977902216552017-07-27T15:07:59.123-07:002017-07-27T15:07:59.123-07:00Stan, thanks for explaining your view. That clear...Stan, thanks for explaining your view. That clears things up. <br /><br />A major challenge for your view is that it requires defining words the Bible uses to mean things other than the normal, simple meaning of those words. Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism view "death" as meaning "death" in the simple way that people all over the world understand "death". Even children have seen dead bugs and dead animals. Thus, God's warning of death is illustrated all around us. We also believe "perish" means "perish", and we believe that images such as being burned to ashes may very well be 100% literal, or at the very least are an apt image for what will happen.Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-31310775482665748382017-07-27T14:31:11.618-07:002017-07-27T14:31:11.618-07:00I advocate for purgatorial (near-)universalism, wh...I advocate for purgatorial (near-)universalism, where only some will be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9) which is destructive and "lossy" (Luke 9:25) but destroys incisively as a salt-fire (Mark 9:48-50). This comports with the primarily purgatorial view of Gehenna held by the Pharisaic Jews, and is the kind of universalism we find among early Christians (that is, we find purgatorial hell belief in the patristics alongside, or in "friendly contest" with, as Augustine might say, beliefs in endless hell and obliterating hell). Under purgatorialism the "life" is not strict perpetuity, but rather the Messianic Age-Life of knowing God through Christ, defined euphemistically in John 17:3 (and used that way in 1 John). Meanwhile, perpetuity is a byproduct of the conquest of death itself (and the return of the Tree of Life). At this time I am not asserting these things but am merely describing them, forgive me if it comes across too assertive.<br /><br />(I have a strong view of sovereignty but that shouldn't be germane here -- there's no conflict between purgatorial universalism and any view of free will. I am not a Calvinist and find fault with some of their affirmations.)Stan Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16865980026908644731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-577543301575393052017-07-27T12:52:57.245-07:002017-07-27T12:52:57.245-07:00Stan, I think that you are arguing for something l...Stan, I think that you are arguing for something like a Calvinistic Universalism. Is that right? (I'm honestly trying to see if I understand what you're saying.)<br /><br />One of the reasons I do not believe that the Bible teaches such a view is that Jesus told us that many will in fact end up experiencing destruction:<br /><br />Matthew 7: 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.<br /> 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-15625393581851731302017-07-27T10:42:51.588-07:002017-07-27T10:42:51.588-07:00I think you're going to find yourself in a pic...I think you're going to find yourself in a pickle of incoherence with this kind of thinking. Everyone is totally stuck and totally hardened unless God steps in and removes the barrier of sin by his Grace. God is the author and finisher of all faith. God did this with you. God did this with me. God can do this with anyone. God's arm is never too short to rescue, the only barrier is sin, and God is always capable of removing that sin. No will is more stubborn than God is powerful and able. <br /><br />These yield very simple Biblical syllogisms and they don't "work" with what you're saying. All Biblical phrases about being cut off and sliced away are subordinate to the new eschatology that rides along with Christ's conquest of death itself. A very simple arithmetic exercise is to read Ezekiel 18:23-24 and the add Christ's conquest of death itself.<br /><br />It's important to avoid "Jonah's error." Jonah was awful, rebellious, and impotent to save himself. But he was redeemed by the Grace of God (reminder: You were awful, rebellious, and impotent to save yourself, but you were redeemed by the Grace of God). Jonah then adopted an entitled attitude that a number of other folks were awful, rebellious, impotent to save themselves... *and thus should be beyond redemption.* Jonah's amnesiatic self-righteousness made him conceited and vindictive, an attitude against which Romans chs. 11 and 12 were written.<br /><br />Romans 11:23<br /><br />"And if they [those who fell] do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."<br /><br />Romans 14:10-11<br /><br />"As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will fully confess to God."Stan Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16865980026908644731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-59118746474176083772017-07-27T08:02:04.488-07:002017-07-27T08:02:04.488-07:00Thanks for you encouragement, Dee. And yes, Roman...Thanks for you encouragement, Dee. And yes, Romans 1:28 does add additional evidence that more time will not help those who have hardened their hearts against God after a certain point. This motivates all of us to feel an urgency to take risks, make sacrifices, and work hard to share God's love and truth with people before it is too late!Mark Corbetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11845358650245441477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4546375020443845329.post-75851072827415885332017-07-27T07:39:26.509-07:002017-07-27T07:39:26.509-07:00Excellent article!Also in Rom.1:28 Furthermore, ju...Excellent article!Also in Rom.1:28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. (God knows our heart, He knows if we love Him or not, if we love Him, we will only want to do those things that are pleasing to Him).Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11916552678179369813noreply@blogger.com