Tuesday, January 14, 2020

Conditional Immortality Provides Better Answers to Tough Questions (a response to a video by John Piper)



Based on broad and deep evidence from the Bible, I’m convinced that the doctrine of conditional immortality is true. The doctrine of conditional immortality states that people will only live forever if they are saved by God through faith in Christ. The flip side is that those who are not saved will not live forever – their bodies and souls will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28), they will perish (John 3:16), and they will be turned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). Among evangelicals the main alternative to belief in conditional immortality is the belief that after the final judgment the unsaved with live in eternal conscious torment.

Not only do I believe that the doctrine of conditional immortality has far better biblical support than the doctrine of eternal torment, I also believe that the doctrine of conditional immortality allows us to give far better answers to some of the tough questions that people ask about Christianity. An example of this can be seen by thinking about a tough question that was asked in yesterday’s “Ask Pastor John” video.

Before I press on to explain how conditional immortality provides a better answer than the one that pastor John Piper gave in the video, I want to say something about John Piper and the ministry of Desiring God. I thank God for John Piper and the ministry he leads. Over a period of more than 25 years I have very often been blessed by his ministry. Piper has helped  to equip, encourage, challenge, and strengthen me to do the work God has called me to do. The fact that occasionally Piper teaches something that I don’t agree with does not diminish how much I value his ministry overall. I have often recommended his resources to others and expect to continue doing so. Now back to the tough question.

The Question

Here is the question from a listener named Lisa that John Piper tries to answer: 

“Dear Pastor John, thank you for your diligence and taking the time to help people all over the world work through difficult questions! I have one. Why do we need a Savior in the first place? I consider myself to be a good person and when I look around at most people, I would say the same about them. I know I am not perfect, and I cannot hold God’s law perfectly, but I don’t consider my thoughts and actions to be so terrible that they need to be punished by death. Should I really need to die because I disobeyed my parents as a child or told a lie? I have a difficult time seeing myself and those close to me as being wicked and utterly depraved.
“There is certainly great evil in the world, such as war, rape, murder, racism, oppression, etc. But the majority of the world doesn’t need God to see these things as evil or to make a positive change. I certainly don’t see how someone innocent, dying a horrible death, somehow makes my wrongs right in the sight of God. Can you help me make sense of this seemingly twisted justice and come to understand why I need Jesus?”

Lisa’s question is complex. Her question involves issues about how serious our sin is, what type of punishment we deserve, and how Jesus dying on the cross makes sense as a way to save us. A lot of big issues are interwoven together in her question. In a thirteen minute video, all these issues cannot be addressed in depth. I think Piper’s strategy of focusing on one element of her question is reasonable. However, the way he reframes Lisa’s question makes it much more difficult to answer than it needs to be.

The title of the episode in question is “Are Hell and the Cross Overkill for Sin?” If you go back and look at Lisa’s question you’ll see that she does allude to the cross when she writes, “someone innocent, dying a horrible death.” In the context of her question, the innocent person she is referring to is Jesus. However, Lisa never mentions hell. She never mentions eternal torment or flames. Yet Piper frames his response  in terms of attempting to explain why people deserve infinite punishment (eternal conscious torment).

What did Lisa say that might have prompted Piper to try to offer a justification for eternal torment? My best guess is it is based on Lisa saying, “I don’t consider my thoughts and actions to be so terrible that they need to be punished by death.” Since the Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), Lisa has stated her question using biblical language. Piper, however, seems to make the following assumption:

death = eternal conscious torment

To me, that’s not at all obvious. The normal definition of death is certainly not to be in torment. Our wide-spread, universal, consistent experience with death is that any dead body we see is not conscious. Piper’s (wrong) assumption makes it far more difficult to provide a good answer to Lisa’s question. An advantage of the doctrine of conditional immortality is that it allows us to interpret multiple biblical words and phrases as having their normal, literal meaning: death means death, perish means perish, being turned to ashes really means be turned to ashes, and eternal life refers literally to living forever which logically entails the simple conclusion that those who don’t have eternal life won’t live forever (and thus cannot be tortured forever).

Before I give an answer to Lisa’s question from the viewpoint of conditional immortality (where death retains it’s normal, every day meaning), let’s look at Piper’s attempt to justify eternal torment as a punishment for the unsaved.

Two Big Problems with the Sins Against an Infinite God Deserve Infinite Punishment Argument




I agree with some of what Piper writes. For example, I think Piper is correct to point out that sins against God such as failure to worship, love, and obey Him are very serious sins. After all, Jesus did rank the two most important commandments, and #1 is the command to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength” (Mk. 12:30 CSB17). The second most important commandment is to love other people as we love ourselves. In my experience it is true that when people think about sins, they often exclusively think about the types of sins that violate the second most important commandment while neglecting to consider the sins that most directly violate the even more important commandment to love God. As with so much of Piper’s teaching, he expresses this truth powerfully, clearly, and helpfully. So far, so good.

At one point Piper engages in a thought experiment. He suggests that even if Lisa were to be a super successful Hitler and commit genocide against most of the world’s population, she still would not deserve infinite punishment. She would deserve a whole lot of punishment, but not infinite punishment, because as terrible as such a sin would be, it still would be finite. I agree with Piper about this.

Then Piper goes on to basically argue that sinning against God is different because “God is of infinite value, infinite beauty, infinite greatness.” As a result, Piper argues, sinning against God does make us worthy of infinite punishment. This argument might sound good on the surface, but it has two fatal flaws.

Imagine that a robber stole money from two people. One of the people he stole from had $100 and the other had an infinite number of dollars. If he stole all their money, it might make sense to say that justice would call for the robber to pay back $100 to the first person and to pay back an infinite number of dollars to the second person. But what if the robber didn’t steal all the money from these  people? What if he only stole a limited amount from each? Let’s say he stole $50 from each of them. Would he owe the second person an infinite number of dollars? Of course, not. Even if the second person owned an infinite number of dollars, the seriousness of the crime is based on how much was stolen, not how much the victim owned.

When a person fails to value God, they certainly do not rob God of all His value. When a person fails to glorify God, they do not cause God to lose an infinite amount of glory. The damage they cause is limited and finite. No person has caused God infinite loss or infinite suffering or eternal torment or anything remotely close to that. So why should we think they deserve infinite punishment? Their sin may be much more serious than they think it is, but it is not infinite. This is the first fatal flaw in Piper’s argument. This flaw seems to me to completely undermine his reasoning. Yet the second flaw presents an even more serious problem.

Concerning the nature of our sin and how serious it is and what punishment it deserves, Piper writes, “We must learn it from the Bible.” With one caveat (which I’ll mention shortly), I agree! The problem is the Bible never uses the type of logic that Piper uses to justify eternal torment. The Bible never says that because God is infinite, we deserve infinite punishment for sins against Him. And the Bible does not teach that the unsaved will be sentenced to eternal conscious torment. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and that the unrighteous will perish (John 3:16). Interestingly, the Bible also teaches that as part of general revelation all people have a God-given conscious that informs us of the penalty that we deserve for rejecting God and committing many sins. And what is that penalty? Read for yourselves:

CSB17 Romans 1:32 Although they know God's just sentence-- that those who practice such things deserve to die-- they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them.

So, both the Bible and our God-given conscious instructs us that our sins deserve death, not that our sins deserve eternal conscious torment.

Answering Lisa’s Question from the Perspective of Conditional Immortality




If Lisa had asked me the same question she asked Pastor John, I would first affirm that she was using biblical language when she questioned whether she deserved death. I would explain that “death,” with it’s normal every day meaning of the cessation of life (which includes the loss of consciousness), is exactly what the Bible teaches the unrighteous deserve. If she was confusing “death” with “eternal torment,” I would patiently go through the massive amount of biblical evidence that shows the final fate of the unrighteous is to perish completely and permanently. Some people call this fate annihilation.

I would then ask if Lisa thinks her life is so good that she deserves to live forever. Most people don’t think that. If she acknowledged that she does not deserve to live forever, than she has acknowledged that she deserves exactly what the Bible says she deserves: to perish permanently. If she thought that based on her conduct in the world perhaps she did deserve to live forever, I would point out that God wants a future, eternal world where there is no more pain or tears or sadness at all and that if he allowed that world to be filled with people who sin like her and I do there would be some amount of sadness. God is not wrong to want a world filled with people experiencing perfect joy, and so He is not wrong to end the life of people who reject His offer of forgiveness and transformation through Christ that would make them fit for such a world. God doesn’t owe us continuing life. Life is a gracious gift. Eternal life is a gift God graciously gives to us through Christ. That’s not wrong or cruel or unfair.

And what about Cross? On the cross Jesus takes our place and suffers for our sins. He suffers exactly what we deserve: death. The fact that the process leading up to His death was a very painful one does indicate that our sins are indeed more serious than we often realize. But the end result is death. However, Jesus overcame death and rose again to eternal life. Those of us who trust in Him will likewise be raised immortal.

Lisa also asked why God used the mechanism of sacrificing His innocent Son to save us. This method of saving us demonstrates both God’s justice and His amazing love. I personally can’t imagine a way of saving us that would more powerfully demonstrate full justice and mind-blowing, amazing love all at the same time. I don’t know for sure if God HAD TO save us this way. What I can say with confidence is that the method He used is good, and beautiful, and wonderful, and has moved countless millions, including myself, to worship Him. And it is the only way He now offers for our salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12).

Conclusion

Many people have stumbled over the doctrine of eternal torment. It is a major reason that some have  rejected Christianity altogether. Others have attempted to remain Christian while jettisoning their confidence in the Bible as being completely true and trustworthy. This is all so tragic and unnecessary. The Bible doesn’t even teach the doctrine of eternal torment. The Bible teaches conditional immortality. And conditional immortality is a doctrine that can provide good answers to tough questions.

Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others . . .


Further Resources for Reading and Study:

The Bible! (please be a Berean and study the Bible for yourself to see if what I have written is true!)

A previous blog post where I responded to another time when John Piper defended eternal torment:


A website where you can find lots of podcasts, blog posts, and other resources on the topic of hell (including a few I have written):


I have collected a list of all my material related to the topic of hell here: